I just noticed that you defined murder in an earlier post, so I should not need to explain to you that under those pesky legal conditions, abortion is not considered murder.
As for the question of which is worse, rape or murder, I would imagine that depends very much on the details of each case. I'm sure there are instances where being raped is worse than being murdered-- we've all got imaginations capable of painting the most horrific pictures, so I don't think I need to provide an example.
If you do not believe that a fetus is a human being, than your interpretation of the definition of murder would be correct. But I believ it to be a human being, which is killed, usually after premeditation. So my understanding of the definition would mean that abortion = murder.
Nowhere in my post did I suggest that you shouldn't have an opinion. I merely pointed out (quite truthfully) that you're expressing strong and narrow-minded opinions on subjects which you yourself will never have to face-- rape, unwanted pregnancy, and abortion. It is easy to point the judgmental finger at someone when you're secure in the knowledge that you will never, ever be in that same position. You also cracked several rape jokes a few posts above this one, so it seems that the gravity of rape hasn't yet impressed itself upon you.
I wouldn't say that I cracked "several rape jokes". What I said may have been out of line, I will concede that notion. However, though I may never be raped, pregnant, or have to think about having an abortion, I feel that my opinion is based on facts which support my choice to be pro-LIFE. I could easily say that you are the narrow-minded one by being the attacker in this debate. You feel like you have to defend your stance, and that is okay, but the personal attacks are quite childish.
Excuse me? I don't even know where to start. There are very many problems, both physical and psychological, that can arise during a pregnancy. My own mother, for instance, suffered from preeclampsia and couldn't give birth to me-- I was delivered four months prematurely via C-section. Hypertensive disorders such as preeclampsia are fairly common (according to the Preecampsia Foundation's website, they are "a leading cause of maternal and infant illness and death... responsible for 76,000 maternal and 500,000 infant deaths each year.") This is only one of the many complications that can arise during a pregnancy.
I do recall saying that TYPICALLY they are mild side-effects. There are 133 million births world-wide EVERY SINGLE YEAR. So you're talking less than a percent. So still, I stand by my statement.
My argument was not JUST about rape, it was about all the reasons that people gave for having abortions, rape included.
No, I am not aware of these studies. Could you provide some references? Who funded this research? It can be difficult to conduct a survey of this nature because rape victims tend not to speak publicly about their experiences-- same with women who have undergone an abortion-- so the sample surveyed is often not indicative of the wider population.
U.S. Department of Justice. 2005 National Crime Victimization Survey. 2005.
On the topic of Rape Abortions -- <5% of rape victims ever get pregnant, and 3% of those victims are teenagers, who usually have a parent watching over them, who, when alone with a doctor, admit to consensual sex. So we're talking a VERY low number of people used for that study, you are correct.
Biologically, sperm contains part of the necessary genetics for a human being, as do ovaries. Out of curiosity, are you one of those who feels it is a sin to "spill one's seed," as they say?
Not that this is the business of the 17k+ members of TreasureTrooper, but yes, I am one who feels that way.
Nature taking its course... now, that's an interesting idea. Human beings have been tampering with nature for so long that I'm not sure we can even say for certain what Nature would do if left to its own devices. The laws of Nature, I suppose, dictate that I should have died shortly after my own birth. As I said, I was a premature baby and I required intervention from the doctors in order to survive: surgery, medicine, breathing tubes, an incubator. Similarly, my step-father is diabetic and requires daily insulin shots to regulate his glucose levels-- without such intervention, he would surely have died by now. At what point do you draw the line? If your argument against the termination of pregnancy is that we must let Nature take its course, then at what point is it acceptable to step in and tamper with Nature?
The difference between our arguments here is that my arguments supports life, while you are basically saying we should let people die, which is what I am against to begin with.
Plants are alive, biologically-- is pulling a weed tantamount to murder? Obviously that is an extreme and fairly silly exaggeration, but my point is that scientists and theologians have been arguing over the definition of "life" for years and have yet to reach an agreement. Morality is an entirely separate and equally complex thing on its own. This is a complicated issue with so many twisting moral pathways that neither one of us could say with certainty what the correct answer might be. That's why I am so adamant that you not be allowed to decide for me, that I not be allowed to decide for you.
In no way am I trying to decide FOR you. I am telling you how I feel about the topic. If you feel that things I say are a personal attack against you, maybe you need to step back, take a breather, and start over.
I am confused as to where you found this information, because frankly that is untrue. An embryo is entirely dependent on the mother for its survival. It is, essentially, a parasite which will die if it cannot feed off its host-- granted, it can be a rather adorable and beloved parasite, but it is a parasite nonetheless.
Oh, so what you're saying is there is life there that is in need of survival, yet people should be allowed to kill it?
You're the one making the ridiculous abortion=murder association. I'm not even sure that I understand this analogy. Are you implying that pro-choice women are somehow a threat to you, and that if you withhold your judgment for too long, you'll end up dead? I still fail to see how a rape victim is like a murderer. Is this one of those Alice in Wonderland riddles? How is a raven like a writing desk?
I'm merely stating that you basically tell me that I am narrow minded, and shouldn't judge, because I will never be in that situation. I will never be raped, or pregnant. So should you be able to judge a murderer if you have never been threatened of murder? The analogy is quite simple actually.
This is true-- no man is an island. Yet while most of us are dog-paddling, you're running for the motorboat. If what you believe about abortion were to become a law, the beliefs of the individual (you, the religious right) would affect me and everyone else in the most personal areas of our lives.
This is a double edged sword. With abortion legal, women can choose to have an abortion for ANY reason, with no say from the father. Now in rape cases, the father probably doesn't care. But in other cases, the father may want the child. The father gets ZERO say when it comes to abortion. So it's okay for the government to say a woman gets her choice, but a man doesn't get his choice?
I judge you to have made a poor choice in an admittedly bad situation. However, your behavior shows you have no remorse for it, despite the potentially mitigating circumstances. Therefore I judge you a murderer with no sorrow for the willful killing of a human life. I judge the impact you have had on society in the past to be terrifically harmful and abhorrent.
I judge you human, however, so hope you might be better than this in the future. No one is perfectly corrupt.
Are you serious? Pardon my implied French, but who the f' are you? You're making some pretty big assumptions there. Maybe I should assume that you're a rapist who gets off on the thought of dozens of innocent young girls giving birth to your offspring-- except I'm not insane, so I don't make assumptions like that based off things I read in an internet forum.
I would also like to add that you call yourself a follower of Christ, yet Christ himself urged us over and over and over again not to judge. Perhaps I am not as familiar with the Bible as you are, so forgive me if I misquote this, but isn't there a passage in the Bible reminding us not to berate our neighbor for the splinter in his eye when we've got a log in our own? Isn't there another one urging only those of us without sin to cast stones-- the point being that none of us are in a position to judge another? You are not only judging-- which I feel is honestly part of our nature, we're judgmental creatures-- but you are judging harshly. You are judging victims of violent crime, you are judging innocent women, you are judging people who have been through things which you will hopefully never see in your lifetime. You are judging these people from your high throne of moral superiority, believing yourself untouchable. Well, I sincerely hope that your life is never personally touched by these things we're discussing. I hope that no woman you love is ever faced with this kind of choice, but it is not unthinkable. Try a little bit of Christian empathy, why don't you?
Again, if you felt that my saying 'your' was a direct attack on YOU personally, that is my fault. There was no implied finger pointing on my end. My implication was that women who continuously have abortions to have harmful impacts on society as a whole. Many women do have remorse for their actions, but MANY do not. If you think that is a false statement, you have a lot to learn, and should really get out and take a look at the big picture.
PS: This has nothing to do with oppression of women.
PS: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Educate yourself on the history of feminism and then say that again.
I believe myself to be HIGHLY educated, and I stand by my word. I am not opressing women. I am stating MY opinions. I am listening to yours. Opression is defined as "the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner". I am not exercising authority nor power, just opinion.