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#11 BikerGirl

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 06:56 PM

I don't read that Thessalonians verse as you do.  I read the expression "with an archangels voice" simply means that the archangel, like God's trumpet, will herald the coming of the Lord, not that the Lord is an archangel.

The first chapter of Hebrews contradicts the entire thought that Jesus is an angel.  Also, angels consistently told people they were not to be worshiped, yet God told all of the angels to worship Jesus.  This just seems so contradictory to the thought that Jesus is Michael and, since scripture never says that He is, I just can't believe that.
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#12 teflonfanatic

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 09:36 PM

View PostBikerGirl, on 14 March 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

I don't read that Thessalonians verse as you do.  I read the expression "with an archangels voice" simply means that the archangel, like God's trumpet, will herald the coming of the Lord, not that the Lord is an archangel.

The first chapter of Hebrews contradicts the entire thought that Jesus is an angel.  Also, angels consistently told people they were not to be worshiped, yet God told all of the angels to worship Jesus.  This just seems so contradictory to the thought that Jesus is Michael and, since scripture never says that He is, I just can't believe that.

I didn't think you will believe that wow that threw me for a loop. How can you believe that there is no separation in the scripture, there's no of, or, and, or anything separating Jesus shout from the archangel's voice, HOWEVER there is a separation from god's trumpet as "and" is added.

The first chapter of hebrews is in harmony with  1 corinthians 15:20-28
The same thing occurred in the "New Testament," or Christian Greek Scriptures. Professor George Howard goes on to say: "When the Hebrew form for the divine name was eliminated in favor of Greek substitutes in the Septuagint, it was eliminated also from the New Testament quotations of the Septuagint.


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#13 BikerGirl

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 06:19 AM

View Postteflonfanatic, on 14 March 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

View PostBikerGirl, on 14 March 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

I don't read that Thessalonians verse as you do.  I read the expression "with an archangels voice" simply means that the archangel, like God's trumpet, will herald the coming of the Lord, not that the Lord is an archangel.

I didn't think you will believe that wow that threw me for a loop. How can you believe that there is no separation in the scripture, there's no of, or, and, or anything separating Jesus shout from the archangel's voice, HOWEVER there is a separation from god's trumpet as "and" is added.


How is that different than saying I come to school with a teacher's voice, a principal's announcement and with the school board's memo.  The and is just a conjunction, it does not show ownership.  It just shows that those things will be around when I come, not that I necessarily have them or am them.  This is a common Christian view.  If you're going to witness as a JW, this will be an argument you get.

And, I don't see how the 1 Corinthians verses relate to the Hebrews verse.

I am not going to agree with you, feel free to stop the debate at any time as I will probably stop soon.  I don't want to debate and argue.  I respect others right to believe what they want, but believe fully that you are wrong and you will not be convincing me, sorry.
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#14 teflonfanatic

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 05:12 PM

View PostBikerGirl, on 15 March 2010 - 06:19 AM, said:

View Postteflonfanatic, on 14 March 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

View PostBikerGirl, on 14 March 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

I don't read that Thessalonians verse as you do.  I read the expression "with an archangels voice" simply means that the archangel, like God's trumpet, will herald the coming of the Lord, not that the Lord is an archangel.

I didn't think you will believe that wow that threw me for a loop. How can you believe that there is no separation in the scripture, there's no of, or, and, or anything separating Jesus shout from the archangel's voice, HOWEVER there is a separation from god's trumpet as "and" is added.


How is that different than saying I come to school with a teacher's voice, a principal's announcement and with the school board's memo.  The and is just a conjunction, it does not show ownership.  It just shows that those things will be around when I come, not that I necessarily have them or am them.  This is a common Christian view.  If you're going to witness as a JW, this will be an argument you get.

And, I don't see how the 1 Corinthians verses relate to the Hebrews verse.

I am not going to agree with you, feel free to stop the debate at any time as I will probably stop soon.  I don't want to debate and argue.  I respect others right to believe what they want, but believe fully that you are wrong and you will not be convincing me, sorry.

Easy, there's no arguing or putting anyone down here. Although i'm sorry if I made you feel that way I had no intention of doing that.  1 Corinthians 15:25-28 is in agreement with Hebrews 1:1-14 because both are talking about God exalting Jesus and the angels being subject to Jesus in Hebrews is also in harmony with the 1 Corinthians scriptures.  The 1 Corinthians scriptures says all things except God himself is subjected to Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:27-28).

May I get your comment on the Genesis 3:15 scripture? Your thoughts about it
The same thing occurred in the "New Testament," or Christian Greek Scriptures. Professor George Howard goes on to say: "When the Hebrew form for the divine name was eliminated in favor of Greek substitutes in the Septuagint, it was eliminated also from the New Testament quotations of the Septuagint.


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#15 BikerGirl

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 06:38 PM

You have not made me feel badly, don't worry.  I just don't want to feel like I'm putting down someone else's beliefs, either.  

I am no expert by any means.  This is how I understand Genesis 3:15...Sin has now entered the world.  Satan will eventually be defeated, but Satan will also "bruise" Christ through His death on the cross.
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#16 teflonfanatic

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 11:36 PM

View PostBikerGirl, on 15 March 2010 - 06:38 PM, said:

You have not made me feel badly, don't worry.  I just don't want to feel like I'm putting down someone else's beliefs, either.  

I am no expert by any means.  This is how I understand Genesis 3:15...Sin has now entered the world.  Satan will eventually be defeated, but Satan will also "bruise" Christ through His death on the cross.

Your partly right, Genesis 3:15 is the first prophecy in the whole bible and one of the most important if not the most important. Let's break it down, Genesis 3:15 Reads 15  And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

I'll start with the top part of the prophecy:

"And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed."

In no way is this woman Eve because Satan is a spirit creature and Eve died over 5,000 years ago.

This Woman is figurative for God's heavenly organization as the bible also uses the term "woman" to refer to organizations (compare Revelation 17:18)  and enmity was put between God's organization and Satan's organization which is made up of falling angels under Satan's control (compare Mark 3:22). As for Satan's and God's seed it's described in this scripture (1 John 3:10-19), God's seed also refers to Jesus and Satan's seed antichrist.

Bottom part of the prophecy:

He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

"He" in this scripture is evidently talking about Jesus as God anoints or appoints Jesus to clear up the issue of universal sovereignty as stated in 1 corinthians 15:20-28, thus making Jesus the one who will fight Satan and his demons and even "bruising" Satan in the head signifying a death wound but before Jesus was exalted by God he had to die for our sins cause he had to correct because of Adam's sin (Romans 5:19).

Well that's it let me know if you think? Oh, there's only one group in Revelation that fights Satan and his Demons and only 1 leader of that group!!!!!!!!!!!!
The same thing occurred in the "New Testament," or Christian Greek Scriptures. Professor George Howard goes on to say: "When the Hebrew form for the divine name was eliminated in favor of Greek substitutes in the Septuagint, it was eliminated also from the New Testament quotations of the Septuagint.


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#17 BikerGirl

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:11 AM

I don't understand the thought that Eve had been dead for 5,000 years at this point.
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#18 teflonfanatic

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 12:41 AM

View PostBikerGirl, on 16 March 2010 - 07:11 AM, said:

I don't understand the thought that Eve had been dead for 5,000 years at this point.

According to the creation timeline or what most people may know as bible chronology. Adam and Eve was made  4028 B.C.E. add 6,000 years to that and you get 1028 A.D. Too lazy to finish the math right now but yeah that's how long Adam and Eve been dead according to the creation timeline. Of course evolution which is a man-made philosophy through science is going to greatly contradict this. It should be noted though radiocarbon data HAS been wrong in the past!!! Interestingly enough according to the bible 1 millenium is one day to God!!!!!!!! It's possible from this scripture that the creation days for the earth was perhaps thousands of years instead of days. I'm not saying that's wrong or right i'm saying only God knows ^_^.

2 Peter 3:8 reads 8  However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

P.S. Sorry for taking so long to respond I was debating this ex JW in another forum we debate each other with essays back to back lol. More questions please :)

Edited by teflonfanatic, 17 March 2010 - 12:43 AM.

The same thing occurred in the "New Testament," or Christian Greek Scriptures. Professor George Howard goes on to say: "When the Hebrew form for the divine name was eliminated in favor of Greek substitutes in the Septuagint, it was eliminated also from the New Testament quotations of the Septuagint.


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#19 BikerGirl

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 11:54 AM

Still confused.  I thought that verse was said while Adam and Eve were still alive.

And, as for days/years, I believe that a day is a day is a day, not longer days, etc...
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#20 teflonfanatic

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 10:23 PM

View PostBikerGirl, on 17 March 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

Still confused.  I thought that verse was said while Adam and Eve were still alive.

And, as for days/years, I believe that a day is a day is a day, not longer days, etc...

Sorry for not explaining it correctly. Yes Eve was still alive when God said that she might have even knew his name since the tetragrammation appears in the manuscripts at Genesis 4:1.  I said Eve died over 5,000 years ago because Satan still has a grudge with God's kingdom today, thus the woman can't be Eve.  As for days yes to us humans 1 day is 24hrs but to God a day is 1,000 years. As for the creation days in Genesis that's God's sarced secret only he knows lol!!!! :)
The same thing occurred in the "New Testament," or Christian Greek Scriptures. Professor George Howard goes on to say: "When the Hebrew form for the divine name was eliminated in favor of Greek substitutes in the Septuagint, it was eliminated also from the New Testament quotations of the Septuagint.


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