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#21 Guest_tonglebeak_*

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 07:37 PM

View PostDTarockoff, on 09 August 2010 - 12:17 PM, said:

View Posttonglebeak, on 09 August 2010 - 12:15 AM, said:

I have no religious beliefs. Logically, God can't exist, because something would've had to create that entity. However, the flaw is that what created the entity that created the entity known as god...etc.

That leads to the possibility that logic, as we know it, cannot be upheld in certain realms/dimensions/planes/whatever you want to call them.

While there's no hard evidence (and the Bible is not evidence, as man wrote it, and I don't care if they claimed "God" told them to write it or not) that "God" exists, there also is no evidence to say that "God" doesn't exist. Therefore, I'm open to the possibilities until one of them can be proved/disproved.

Note that it would be be a terrible idea for people to dismiss the religions of others. Respect their religion, and they'll respect yours (this goes for no religious beliefs as well). Although there are always jerks out of the bunches who try to ruin things.

Nicely said...the only problem with "respecting other religions" as you said is the people who think they're not jerks and are so convinced that they're right that they think they're "saving" others by trying to convert them. Either way though I do agree it is a tricky situation to debate because there is no 100% SOLID proof on either side of the situation.

I had one of those at work. He thought he was doing good. After a while I avoided him, and everyone hated him. People need to learn to stop forcing their crap onto others. Do I go around and tell people what time they should be taking a bath? No. So then, why does someone feel the need to tell me what I should "believe" in?

#22 leah_laf

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 09:45 PM

View PostDTarockoff, on 08 August 2010 - 11:29 PM, said:

View Postleah_laf, on 08 August 2010 - 06:45 PM, said:

Just to add, Separation of church and state occurred when the Puritans were using their religion to punish citizens of the New World (witch trials). Our founders did not want a repeat of the Church of England, Inquisition, etc. I can't remember my history, too tired to pull it up at the moment, but it was a combination of all the "history", they instituted the Separation. It was all about the forcing of another's religious beliefs and punishing those unbelivers in society.

When certain organizations freak over Separation of Church and State, I have to laugh, because if they really read all the books and articles available to said organization, they'd see why it started, and how irrelevant it is in "little" things, like Christmas trees and Christmas cards.

Jesus was raised Jewish, was Jewish, and stated He was the promised Messiah from the Jewish beliefs.

Hope this helps a little. I'm Roman Catholic.

If Jesus was Jewish as you say, and Jesus is the perfect sinless savior that Christians claim him to be, why would Christians not want to be Jewish so they could be exactly like Jesus himself?

Because Jesus was the Promised Messiah; He was born and circumcised and raised Jewish. But, He did come out and say, the prophecy has been fulfilled. And enlisting the 12 disciples, He built a Church, and Peter was the rock. Upon this rock I will build My Church. When Jesus came, He acknowledged the Jewish religion as the original faith. Part of the Jewish religion is the belief the Messiah will come. He came, and gave more opportunities to man. However, as it stands, the Jewish people are still waiting for the Messiah to come, and Christians are waiting for the return of Christ. Having a deep respect for the Jewish religion enables one to understand moreso the gift of Christ coming, His Death, and Resurrection. Growing in Christian charity and one will grow closer to Jesus.
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#23 DTarockoff

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 09:35 AM

@leah_laf: I'm not quite sure I get how having "a deep respect for the Jewish religion enables one to understand moreso the gift of Christ coming, His Death, and Resurrection," considering the Jewish faith doesn't believe in the return of Christ as you also stated. I'm also having trouble understanding when he came out and said the "prophecy has been fulfilled?" What prophecy? And why would he convince his followers to not live the perfect life that he did? It seems, by Jesus' standards, that Judaism is the ideal religion.

On a side note I also just had a few more questions I wasn't clear on...if one doesn't have faith in Jesus, does not believe in him at all, and lives their live full of "sins" (nothing like murder, just simple things considered sins under christian faith, such as lying for example), do they go to hell? What if they don't sin? What if they're Jewish?

Also, do you actually believe Jesus will be resurrected during your lifetime? Or how far in the future? It seems to me that if he were going to come back at all it would have been hundreds of years ago when there were much more dedicated christians amongst the world. It seems that as more time goes on, we become more advanced and intelligent as a society and there are constantly more disbelievers in God. Maybe I'm wrong though, that's just what it feels like.
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#24 Guest_tonglebeak_*

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 10:44 AM

View PostDTarockoff, on 10 August 2010 - 09:35 AM, said:

@leah_laf: I'm not quite sure I get how having "a deep respect for the Jewish religion enables one to understand moreso the gift of Christ coming, His Death, and Resurrection," considering the Jewish faith doesn't believe in the return of Christ as you also stated. I'm also having trouble understanding when he came out and said the "prophecy has been fulfilled?" What prophecy? And why would he convince his followers to not live the perfect life that he did? It seems, by Jesus' standards, that Judaism is the ideal religion.

On a side note I also just had a few more questions I wasn't clear on...if one doesn't have faith in Jesus, does not believe in him at all, and lives their live full of "sins" (nothing like murder, just simple things considered sins under christian faith, such as lying for example), do they go to hell? What if they don't sin? What if they're Jewish?

Also, do you actually believe Jesus will be resurrected during your lifetime? Or how far in the future? It seems to me that if he were going to come back at all it would have been hundreds of years ago when there were much more dedicated christians amongst the world. It seems that as more time goes on, we become more advanced and intelligent as a society and there are constantly more disbelievers in God. Maybe I'm wrong though, that's just what it feels like.

Science can be proven, faith cannot. That's why more of us are becoming disbelievers of any religion. Although, science still cannot prove where everything came from, so that does leave the door open to a hole in logic as we know it. IMO, sins are behaviors that are arbitrarily frowned upon by certain individuals.

Here's something to rattle the brain a bit: how do we know that "God" isn't really the devil, and vice versa? Just think about why that is possible... ( hint: it very well could be a "he said/she said" game).

#25 Guest_anthony06914_*

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 03:55 PM

I don't believe in god , don't follow any religions ,  
And don't believe in any higher power .
And also don't believe in any of that nonsense .
Because I think it's all BS . But that's just me .
But , I do believe in the logic of everyone being their
own god whether they like to believe  it or not .
And i'm not trying  to say that I am a satanist .
Because,I am not one .

And I'm not sayig that everyone  has to believe in what I believe in .
Because , nobody has too .
And i'm not trying to force anyone too .
Because,If I did that then , I would be a hypocrite .

And i'm not a hypocrite . Because , I respect everyone's beliefs and religions .
Just like I respect everyone's opinions and perspectives .


But the thing about people being their own god ,is them making decisions
for theirself
whether they are good or bad . And doing what they want in life.
And doing what makes them happy .
And not listening to
the negative stuff what people have to say about them .
And another thing about people being their own god
is them following their dreams,reaching their goals,and accomplishing them .
And another thing about people being their own god is respecting other people's
belief's,religions,opinions,and perspectives

And this is all of my opinions and my beliefs .

#26 TreasureTech

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 07:49 PM

Disclaimer 1: I mean no disrespect here
Disclaimer 2: This is my personal opinion/thoughts

I've actually never been able to understand people who don't believe in a higher power at all. Which is truly harder to believe? That a powerful Creator in some capacity made us? Or that a ball of dust, which magically existed forever just magically randomly super science-like created life? Isn't the harmony of nature in and of itself evidence of a higher power? Some people say they believe that everything is chaos. But I submit to you this. If the universe is chaos, why do trees produce oxygen, which we just *happen* to breathe? Why does the ozone layer block levels of radiation which just *happen* to be fatal?

This isn't a real detailed statement but eh. I tried.
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#27 mattre98

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 08:34 PM

Actually the science of creation has yet to be proven. It is filled with theories and as science most recently revealed about creation is falling apart. Like said in earlier listing the latest DNA studies alone show there has been a major breakdown in theory. On the other hand faith continues to grow. Where the United States belief has started to fall somewhat on a world wide view faith is growing at incredible numbers. Even in the United States the amount of unbelievers of any God is less than 10 percent of population. Christianity still remains the fastest growing faith in the US as well.

The main issue is believers are not as loud as they were in the past. The squeaky wheel gets the grease concept. Example California where voters decided prop eight but yet the squeaky few took that vote away from the people.

There is so much love and grace found in Christ he is willing to forgive even the sin of murder, read the story of Paul. It is our pride that gets in way of receiving the forgiveness He offers. Who are we to tell the creator of all things what and who He should allow into heaven. We were the first to goof everything up in the first place, but yet He gave His one and only son that we may have a chance. Not only did He give his Son, but Jesus died one of the most cruel deaths known to mankind. he has already resurrected and one day very soon by signs of the times He shall return. I do feel for those who test the waters of eternity through pride of not receiving a free gift of salvation, and in the end find out the pride has led them to eternity of pain and suffering.
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#28 Guest_tonglebeak_*

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 08:36 PM

View PostTreasureTech, on 10 August 2010 - 07:49 PM, said:

Disclaimer 1: I mean no disrespect here
Disclaimer 2: This is my personal opinion/thoughts

I've actually never been able to understand people who don't believe in a higher power at all. Which is truly harder to believe? That a powerful Creator in some capacity made us? Or that a ball of dust, which magically existed forever just magically randomly super science-like created life? Isn't the harmony of nature in and of itself evidence of a higher power? Some people say they believe that everything is chaos. But I submit to you this. If the universe is chaos, why do trees produce oxygen, which we just *happen* to breathe? Why does the ozone layer block levels of radiation which just *happen* to be fatal?

This isn't a real detailed statement but eh. I tried.

The problem, with any theory/religion, is "who created God?" If you were to say "God just exists, and didn't need to be created," then how could that not apply to matter?

#29 Treasure

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 08:04 AM

View Posttonglebeak, on 10 August 2010 - 08:36 PM, said:

The problem, with any theory/religion, is "who created God?" If you were to say "God just exists, and didn't need to be created," then how could that not apply to matter?

Yes your logic is accurate.  So, lets say that there is an equal chance that God existed at the beginning of "time" and that a big ball of dust existed at the beginning of time.

Now, having established that one is just as likely as the other... which of those two options is more likely to have created the entire universe?  Therefore, simple math dictates that God is a much higher probability.

#30 Guest_tonglebeak_*

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:42 PM

View PostTreasure, on 11 August 2010 - 08:04 AM, said:

View Posttonglebeak, on 10 August 2010 - 08:36 PM, said:

The problem, with any theory/religion, is "who created God?" If you were to say "God just exists, and didn't need to be created," then how could that not apply to matter?

Yes your logic is accurate.  So, lets say that there is an equal chance that God existed at the beginning of "time" and that a big ball of dust existed at the beginning of time.

Now, having established that one is just as likely as the other... which of those two options is more likely to have created the entire universe?  Therefore, simple math dictates that God is a much higher probability.

Actually, neither would be more likely. It's common knowledge that, any given atom, can form a bond with any other compatible atom, until stability is reached. It is not at all unreasonable, to assume that atoms rearranged themselves (it happens in front of your eyes all the time). Don't forget about gravity: gravity is that attraction, that all matter has. The matter basically goes into a snowball effect, which would form planets, stars, entire galaxies, etc.

Also, the universe is extremely old: most of us would not comprehend, just how much time matter had, to rearrange itself into what we see today (and of course, rearranging would mean forming chemical bonds, gravitational attractions, etc). It's roughly 13.75 billion years old. Just try to fathom how long that is: If an 80 year old man repeated his life cycle, throughout the lifespan of the universe, then he would have lived 171,875,000 times!

Edited by tonglebeak, 11 August 2010 - 02:17 PM.





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